Megalithic shipping and trade routes

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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 9:10 pm

Mick Harper wrote:Navigating from headland to headland would last less than a season on lee shores like Portugal, the Bay of Biscay and the western Channel


I'm glad you followed the clues. Aiming for headlands is not a good way to navigate. (It's like modern sailors using a lighthouse as a waypoint for GPS navigation when the lighthouse is on top of a cliff). Especially when the westerly prevailing winds are blowing you towards these lee headlands.

And therein lies a clue to one of the elephants in the corner of European linguistics. That is, why is Galician so similar to Welsh?

I shall explain in parts.

Part 1 : Long-term experience and survival would reward the sailing routes that used the westerly prevailing winds but avoided these lee headlands. Something that was the undoing of the Spanish Amarda that let the prevailing winds take them into the English Channel. Which then had effectively trapped them. They had to attempt to sail all the way around Britain to avoid trying to sail against the prevailing winds. The best way to regularly avoid these lee headlands (as a regular trade route for sailing ships with cargoes) is to head due north towards Ireland (say St. Michael's) and then right-hand down a bit until you head east towards Wales and the safe deep water harbours like Milford Haven. Which explains all those silly old maps which show Ireland closer to Spain than Britain. Because everybody knew you got to Ireland before you got to Britain.

Part 2 : A Coruña in Galicia is famously the location of the Tower of Hercules, which served as a beacon for ships sailing from the north.

The tower is known to have existed by the 2nd century, built or perhaps rebuilt under Trajan, possibly on foundations following a design that was Phoenician in origin. It is thought to be modeled after the Lighthouse of Alexandria.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hercules

The position of the lighthouse is not understood since it strongly favours an approach from the northwest. It does not provide a guide to safe harbour to vessels approaching either up the West coast of the Iberian peninsula, nor along the Rias of the north coast. This would imply that the lighthouse was built to satisfy the needs of regular traffic coming in from the Atlantic, perhaps taking a Westerly route from the Cap Gris Nez area to avoid the Bay of Biscay or direct from Ireland or South West England.


Part 3: #1 Son is turning out to be a bit of a cunning linguist. On top of his native English, he's mastered French and Spanish, and he's been studying Arabic and Mandarin Chinese. How much of the world has he got covered? Perhaps 80%? Anyway, he's off to Galicia for a year, to teach English in A Coruña. He's been telling me : the Galician language *isn't* Spanish and it is similar to Welsh. So there, that's me told. I didn't mention I'd heard the same 25 years ago while I was in Yorkshire (of all places). Someone from Galicia was a friend of a friend of mine. They went to Aberystwyth, where magically he could speak his native Galician to Welsh-speakers and they could understand each other. They just thought he was from a strange part of Wales.

I can't find any written mention of that similarity here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician_language
Which Harpo might call "careful ignoral" as it's a mystery.

But it's only a mystery for those historians who are ignorant of the ancient trade routes by sea.

I look forward to any suggestions as to which came first, the Galician or the Welsh. Or both came from somewhere else?
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Mick Harper » 6:57 am

A most fascinating new departure. Just so I can get the basics in my head, I had gained the impression that Galician was like Cornish i.e. a variant of Welsh (if I may put it like that) which had died out but for which there was historical evidence. Unlike Breton which was just about clinging on but dying out. These four languages were to be distinguished from Irish and Scots Gaelic which are variants of one another, similar to but not comprehensible to Welsh/Cornish/Breton/Galician speakers. Then there is Manx and Cumbric of whose status I am uncertain.

There is a whole slew of politics involved in these matters. Thus when the local team is Celta Vigo one cannot tell whether they are being serious or nostalgic. All the 'Celtic' areas use their status as negotiating opportunities when dealing with the English, French and Spanish metropolitan elites. For instance, Stormont is currently closed because Sinn Fein demand equal status for Gaelic though nobody in Northern Ireland speaks it. And, because all the relevant academics are 'Celtic' academics, you can't altogether trust even the basics.

I agree therefore we must send your son out to research these matters despite the fact that when I met him as a spotty teenager (him, not me) he could only communicate in grunts.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 9:36 pm

Mick Harper wrote: Thus when the local team is Celta Vigo one cannot tell whether they are being serious or nostalgic. All the 'Celtic' areas use their status as negotiating opportunities when dealing with the English, French and Spanish metropolitan elites.


As Tisi has toured most of the entire bagpipe-playing world, I would bow to his expertise on the matter. Even if they do enter a Galician team in the Inter-Celtic Championships.

Tisi, is the Galician kilt and bagpipes the real deal, or did they just borrow the kit from the visiting Scots during the Napoleonic Wars?

Mick Harper wrote: I agree therefore we must send your son out to research these matters despite the fact that when I met him as a spotty teenager (him, not me) he could only communicate in grunts.


Rest assured the grunts were nothing personal. Under the circumstances, it was the safest response he could muster. Especially with his dubious dad being so gullible as to invite yet more strange people to visit Chateau Boreades for free. There's a long list of my odd acquaintances, and he disapproves of most of them. Children can be surprisingly orthodox when their parents are growing old disgracefully and spending some of their inheritance on wine and jollity. We'll waste the rest.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 10:10 pm

Breaking news on the perils of organic shipping endeavours from Sail Cargo!

We know you have been eagerly awaiting the arrival of our delicious cargo of olive oil, and other produce. We were due to arrive in Newhaven tomorrow, Saturday 9th June, but we have had to delay our arrival, due to unforeseen circumstances - and are rescheduling delivery of our sail cargo to next weekend (if you're not around next weekend, we'll make arrangements to deliver your cargo to you). While sailing off Selsey Bill, we caught some rope or other obstruction on our propeller. While we were able to continue sailing, the winds completely dropped off about 4pm this afternoon and we've had to request assistance to be towed into Littlehampton. This evening, one of our intrepid crew dived under the boat to investigate the issue but discovered it was a bit more complex than we anticipated. Sadly, this means we're now going to have to wait till Monday to make further investigations to make Jalapeno safe to sail. Thanks for your patience and your support!


No surprises there, we know how easily these unforseen things happen. Even if they've been cheating a bit on the "sail only" marketing by doing the cabotage in a yacht with an engine and a propellor. But you have to grasp these trade opportunities as they happen. The good ship SS Boreades once had to make an emergency stop in Studland Bay (drop all anchors and reverse at maximum revs). How were we to know we had just ploughed through prime eel grass and a premier location for the UK's population of teeny weeny seahorses? Fortunately, M'Lady's brother's wife's second cousin knew someone in the organic seafood market, and we made a tidy bundle on the fresh organic seahorses. They taste like shrimps. Lovely jubbly.

Meanwhile, something more serious has arisen:

As an added extra, while in Brixham, we collected 72 bottles of fine Portuguese wines from Xisto wines that had been sailed up from Porto to Brixham by Nordlys. If any of you would like to purchase some bottles from Xisto wines when you collect your Sail Cargo produce, we will have bottles on board for you to choose from. We've learned a lot from our passage to Brixham and back (280 nautical miles) and look forward to meeting you and sharing the news of our passage and the people we've met along the way.


M'Lady, as the daughter of a ticket-holding master mariner and harbour master, didn't get where she is today without knowing the perils and pitfalls of the maritime laws of salvage. Like declaring your manifest while being rescued or under tow. The SS Boreades has been despatched at flank speed to intercept this dangerous cargo which needs special expertise and special handling. We will show goodwill and replace them with some of the safe empty bottles from Chateau Boreades.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby TisILeclerc » 4:04 pm

I'm surprised to hear that Galician is like Welsh. I'm not so surprised to hear that the local men have taken to wearing skirts with a fetching cowboy check pattern. It seems to be the way the world is going. Even schools in England are forcing boys to wear skirts rather than shorts and apparently hairy legged train drivers in various parts of Europe have taken up the fashion.

Breton is like Welsh, Cornish is like Welsh and shepherds from Cumbria and Yorkshire use the yan tan tethera system for counting sheep. But they don't count themselves as Celts, usually. They may wear wellies but skirts, no.

Even the 'Celtic League' has rejected Galicia's claims to Celtic brotherhood.

“The Galician Crisis: Definition of Celtic”. This chapter frames the discussion that takes place in the rest of the book by defining the modern Celtic nation. This is achieved by describing the outcome of a contentious debate that rocked the Celtic League in 1986. This crisis was triggered by the Celtic League’s recognition of Asturias and Galicia as Celtic nations and the reaction and debate that followed. Ultimately the Celtic League reversed the decision and today excludes Galicia and Asturias from the “Six Nations”.


https://www.transceltic.com/pan-celtic/ ... of-galicia

If Berresford Ellis is prepared to take that stand it must be serious. He once defended the Breton collaborators who were hounded out of France after the war.

Regarding the tartan skirt, even in Scotland that is a modern invention. Supposedly designed to make it easier for highlanders to work in factories and then taken up by Royal fops under the benevolent gaze of Walter Scott and the Sobielski brothers who invented all the clan tartans we have come to know and love.

John Sobieski Stuart and Charles Edward Stuart were names used by John Carter Allen and Charles Manning Allen, two 19th-century brothers who are best known for their role in Scottish cultural history. As authors of a dubious book on Scottish tartans and clan dress, the Vestiarium Scoticum,[a] they are the source of some current tartan traditions.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobieski_Stuarts

As for bagpipes, just about every country in Europe and parts of Africa and Asia have them. Bulgarians not only play bagpipes but the women often wear tartan dresses. Perhaps the Galicians are Bulgarian. The latter call their bagpipes the Gaida which is the same as Gaita and means goat. From the skin the bag is made of.

Nobody knows where or when the pipes came into Scotland but it was some time in the middle ages according to most accounts. And lowlanders also played them, as well as English and Welsh people with a fine ear for music. Although it looks like the lowlanders are revolting. As a grandson of Skye I have the right to say that.

Image

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/2 ... mile-loud/

It could only be described as loud if the old ladies in Morningside could hear him.

Image

http://www.galicianshop.com/kilts/galic ... laecia.htm

A real test would be to look at the linguistic evidence as described above. Not vocabulary but basic structure. Celtic languages are a bit like Semitic languages in that they reverse the subject verb order. Does Galician do that?

Celtic languages lenite, aspirate, mutate or whatever you want to call it initial consonants under certain circumstances. So, B becomes V or W. M becomes V and so on. It is a move from the front of the mouth to the back and into the throat. Does Galician do that? Celtic languages use continuous tenses based on the verb to be, does Galician do the same? English does so perhaps English is Celtic as well. Where's me skirt?

I think a Megalithic tartan should be designed with a hammer and chisel coat of arms. Good money spinner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_kilts_and_tartans

https://www.your-kilt.com/welsh-kilts.html

And for those who dare

Image

https://skilt.co.uk/combat-skilt-features-and-sizing/
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 7:01 pm

I'm getting very confused about who or what is "Celtic".

Like, the Celtic places in Portugal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... n_Portugal
But Portugal isn't Celtic.

As for bonny Scotland...

"Why is Scotland considered a Celtic nation?"
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Scotland-c ... ot-England

"The Scots are not Celts"

The Greeks and Romans used the words Keltoi and Celtae but they never mentioned any connection with the British Isles. [There are many references to the tribes and peoples of Britain. None of them refer to a Celtic origin].
There is clear evidence [from classical accounts] of the Celtic language [whatever it is] being spoken in parts of France, Northern Italy and Spain. There is no such evidence for the Celtic tongue being spoken in either the assumed homeland in central Europe nor in the present day "Celtic" areas on the fringes of Britain.

https://mons-graupius.co.uk/index.php/o ... -not-kelts

And the DNA tests adds to the confusion:

I had assumed that there was a uniform Celtic fringe from Cornwall through to Wales into Scotland - and this has very definitely not been the case
Prof Mark Robinson, Oxford University


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-31905764

Image

Is it a circular argument?

Q. Who is a Celt?
A. Anyone who speaks a Celtic language.

Q. What's a Celtic language?
A. A language spoken by a Celt.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby TisILeclerc » 10:05 pm

The funny thing is that the outer Hebrides are seen as the last bastion of the Gaelic language. Therefore Celtic.

One of the gaelic names for the area is Innse Gall. Meaning Islands of the foreigners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Hebrides

Wiki translates it as 'islands of the strangers' but there is a definite feeling of foreigner to the word Gall. It is found in names such as Dubhgall, Dougal. Donegal in Ireland. And so on. The lowlands of Scotland are known as the Galldachd as opposed to the Gaidhealtachd of the highlands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A0idhealtachd

Galldachd (Gall-dom, Gall referring to a non-Gael) is often used for the Lowlands, although it is also notable that the Hebrides are known as Innse Gall due to the historical presence of Norsemen.


So, the Gaelic speaking areas are known for their Norsemen ancestors. Most of the highland clans can claim descent from Norway. They even met up with Irish clans on the Isle of Man for important meetings and discussions etc.

Why would people in the Hebrides call themselves foreigners? And what happened to Norse? Why did gaelic survive? Over in Shetland and Orkney they were speaking a kind of Norse until relatively recently.

Gaelic speakers constantly refer to their language as being the language of the Garden of Eden. I don't think they mention the Celtica region of France in their thinking. And given the grammatical structure of Gaelic it's possible that there is a close connection with the middle east.

But then there has never been an adequate explanation of the difference between the Welsh and Gaelic languages. And let's leave the Picts out of it altogether. That is complicated.

In fact the verb structure of Gaelic is quite simple. The verb never changes from the start with 'I am to they are' as in English or most other languages. Whatever the verb it remains the same throughout. A bit like Mandarin Chinese in fact.

Now there's a thought.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 8:31 pm

Beresford-Ellis pops up again here. He seems to think Celtic has Sanskrit connections. Or the modern Druids think that.

Language -

"The very name Druid is composed of two Celtic word roots which have parallels in Sanskrit. Indeed, the root vid for knowledge, which also emerges in the Sanskrit word Veda, demonstrates the similarity. The Celtic root dru which means 'immersion' also appears in Sanskrit. So a Druid was one 'immersed in knowledge." Peter Beresford-Ellis.


Astrology

"Celtic cosmology is a parallel to Vedic cosmology. Ancient Celtic astrologers used a similar system based on twenty-seven lunar mansions, called nakshatras in Vedic Sanskrit. Like the Hindu Soma, King Ailill of Connacht, Ireland, had a circular palace constructed with twenty-seven windows through which he could gaze on his twenty-seven 'star wives.' There survives the famous first century bce Celtic calendar (the Coligny Calendar) which, as soon as it was first discovered in 1897, was seen to have parallels to Vedic calendrical computations.' Early Irish Astrology: An Historical Argument by Peter Berresford Ellis


https://www.druidry.org//events-project ... ee-project

and

http://www.sanskritimagazine.com/indian ... onnection/

Edit : Frustratingly they don't mention what the parallels to Vedic calendrical computations actually are.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 9:56 pm

TisILeclerc wrote: One of the gaelic names for the area is Innse Gall. Meaning Islands of the foreigners.


Does this mean there is a connection between places like Galway (in Ireland), Galloway (in Scotland), and, err, Portugal?
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Mick Harper » 10:35 pm

and, err, Portugal?

Only if you are sailing southwards.
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