Reverse engineering

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Reverse engineering

Postby Boreades » 10:26 pm

I have just found this excellent piece of historical detective work, on where Boudica's last battle might have been.
http://bandaarcgeophysics.co.uk/arch_intro.html
and
http://bandaarcgeophysics.co.uk/arch/bo ... stics.html

It appealed to me, because it's not orthodox history regurgitated, but based on (what seems to me to be) sensible reasoning based on military logistics, supplies and marching camps a day apart. Not least because Ogbourne St.George ranks as one of the very most likely places! But it might have been Hattie's Silchester, or Arthur's Mount Badon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liddington_Castle

Anyway, my point is, what was true for your average Roman footsoldier was true for your megalithic tin-mover. You needed a safe place at the end of each day's slog to rest your weary feet and mules. You and the mules needed water and protection from whatever. Especially if you are enforcing Roman control over existing trade.

So - from the known map of known (and predictable) Roman Marching Camp sites, can we reverse-engineer where there must (for practical functional reasons) have been megalithic trade route enclosures as well?

See http://www.bandaarcgeophysics.co.uk/arc ... ps_uk.html
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Re: Reverse engineering

Postby spiral » 11:06 am

Boreades wrote:
So - from the known map of known (and predictable) Roman Marching Camp sites, can we reverse-engineer where there must (for practical functional reasons) have been megalithic trade route enclosures as well?

See http://www.bandaarcgeophysics.co.uk/arc ... ps_uk.html


Thanks Borman.

I don't want to say too much as it's your thread.

But to my way of thinking.

That Meglathic river ports (sic) become Roman river forts (sic) seems to me quite natural.

The problem with the study of ancient ports it is dominated by the study of massive seaports.
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Re: Reverse engineering

Postby Boreades » 9:35 pm

In Cornwall, Devon and Dorset, Roman forts and marching camps are still being found, and they all coincidentally sit on or near Bronze and Iron age trade ports and routes.
e.g.
St.Austell: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10372659
Calstock: http://www.tamarvalley.org.uk/wp-conten ... t-13MB.pdf
Restormel, near Lostwithiel: http://www.roman-britain.org/places/restormel.htm
Nanstallon, near Bodmin: http://www.roman-britain.org/places/sta ... asteno.htm

Not forgetting the Roman-era tin mines
at Carnanton: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/715163
and at Treloy: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1963220
Both near Newquay

A few days ago I had the pleasure of seeing a Roman Vase that was found by a diver near Cremyll. It reminds me that a lot of ancient ports were further inland than our current ports. For a variety of reasons, like old ports on rivers have silted-up, or the reason for going further up river has been lost, or massive container/cargo ships need massive ports in deeper water. But sometimes (like in Poole Harbour) the old ports have sunk.

Either way, we don't need to get fixated on where our existing ports are exactly, as it's very likely Megalithic ports were somewhere else.
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Re: Reverse engineering

Postby spiral » 8:59 am

Given the level of fuel required for smelting, and the landscape we are left with, I would hazard a guess that we should be also looking for evidence of ancient timber rafting...? Or Log driving?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_rafting

But feel free to head off in another direction....
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Re: Reverse engineering

Postby Boreades » 11:30 pm

spiral wrote:Given the level of fuel required for smelting, and the landscape we are left with, I would hazard a guess that we should be also looking for evidence of ancient timber rafting...? Or Log driving?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_rafting

But feel free to head off in another direction....


Given how relatively narrow so many British rivers are, my guess is log driving.

I'm in no doubt that the present condition of Bodmin Moor, Dartmoor and Exmoor (as one example) is the result of deforestation for fuel for smelting in Cornwall, Devon and Somerset. With a resulting and catastrophic loss of topsoil by rain erosion. The eroded topsoil added to the mining spoil, all of which washed downstream and helped cause the silting-up of ancient ports that had previously been perfectly good locations upstream of where modern-day ports are found.

Across the other side of the Bristol Channel, in places like the Forest of Dean, I believe they survived as forests because the foresters discovered coal, which was immediately a better fuel for smelting. Likewise in North East Somerset, where lead, silver and coal occurred close together. At one time, the Roman lead mines in Somerset produced more lead than anywhere else in the Roman Empire. Or so we're told: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Roman_Britain

In Wales, a similar situation seems likely at the Dolaucothi Gold Mines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolaucothi_Gold_Mines

Likewise in the The Forest of Anderida (now Sussex and Kent) for Iron working.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weald
Now fracking there for oil and gas, but that's another story. See Balcombe.
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Re: Reverse engineering

Postby Mick Harper » 12:23 am

Given how relatively narrow so many British rivers are, my guess is log driving.

What is 'log driving'? I refuse to believe British rivers, especially prehistoric British rivers that were completely unkempt, were good for anything. Even travelling alongside in long distant journeying.

I believe they survived as forests because the foresters discovered coal, which was immediately a better fuel for smelting.

We are taught that coal was only used for smelting after Abraham Darby discovered how in the eighteenth century (AD).
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Re: Reverse engineering

Postby Boreades » 10:30 pm

Mick Harper wrote:
Given how relatively narrow so many British rivers are, my guess is log driving.

What is 'log driving'? I refuse to believe British rivers, especially prehistoric British rivers that were completely unkempt, were good for anything. Even travelling alongside in long distant journeying.


How about log rolling instead? As in, you chopped down the tree, and let the log roll down the hill?

I believe they survived as forests because the foresters discovered coal, which was immediately a better fuel for smelting.
We are taught that coal was only used for smelting after Abraham Darby discovered how in the eighteenth century (AD).


What? MH defends orthodox history?!?
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Re: Reverse engineering

Postby macausland » 8:07 am

If you are interested in Bronze Age boats there's an interesting video on youtube of the 'Morgawr' a reconstruction of the Ferriby boat found some time ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG_b5Ghfmy0

An online article gives construction details etc.

http://indigenousboats.blogspot.co.uk/2 ... ction.html

http://www.ferribyboats.co.uk/

The above site refers to the Ferriby boats' discovery and other details.

This site discusses the possible connection between the area and Egypt.

http://lorraineevans.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... boats.html

And this one is Hull museum's article.

http://www.hullcc.gov.uk/museumcollecti ... hp?irn=470

The BBC has an article on the boats.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1234529.stm


I suppose this doesn't answer the question of river navigation but there must have been similar technology for inland sailing.

The larger rivers would certainly have been capable of accepting boats transporting people and goods. As for cattle and the like, a common method of moving them by water in Scotland was to tie them together and to a boat and make them swim following the boat to the destination.
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Re: Reverse engineering

Postby macausland » 8:52 am

And here is a series of videos showing the construction of the replica Ferriby boat. The team used mainly handmade tools which are based on what was available at the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22chM3wY ... 19C3B218C7

It's well worth watching the lot. The final video shows the stitching technique used.
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Re: Reverse engineering

Postby Boreades » 10:19 pm

Ortho Romano-British history says the Romans stopped around Exeter. But recent field work has found three Roman forts in Cornwall and West Devon.
1) Nanstallon, west of Bodmin
2) Restormel, near Fowey
3) Bere Ferrers, on the Devon side of the Tamar river

The site at Restormel has produced an "unusual" amount of "exotic" material imported from the Continent and the Mediterranean.
No surprise there, as Fowey is an excellent well-sheltered deep water port, only one day's sail from Brittany.

Nanstallon and Restormel are hilltop forts overlooking the highest navigable parts of rivers. For Nanstallon, it is the River Camel flowing to Padstow. Nanstallon is within two miles of deposits of silver, lead, tin and copper. The two forts are only 5 miles apart, separated by a pre-roman Ridgeway. Which we would expect if the Romans were taking over and controlling the existing trade routes. Castle Canyke (a pre-roman hillfort which we would expect to have megalithic connections) is on the same ridge.

Another Roman marching camp has been found at North Tawton, near Okehampton in Devon

Can we plot the proximity to the Michael Line of Nanstallon, Restormel, Castle Canyke and North Tawton?

Also, what has been a surprise is the find at Restormel (by Jonathon Clemes of St.Austell) of slag from iron smelting, and iron ore deposits only 300m from Restormel.

See http://www.associationromanarchaeology. ... _part2.pdf
and http://www.associationromanarchaeology. ... news21.pdf

Meanwhile, back in Hattie's part of the world, at Silchester, archeo fieldwork had found evidence of
1) an older Iron Age town beneath Calleva Atrebatum, with a planned street pattern aligned northeast to southwest. The Roman grid has a different alignment.
2) a major fire in Colchester between AD50 and AD80. Possibly during the Boudiccan revolt of AD60
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