Megalithic mapping

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Re: Megalithic mapping

Postby Boreades » 10:56 am

Mick Harper wrote:No clas there according to us but you can be the judge.


Whether there was a clas (or not) is probably only relevant to your Welsh Forgeries fetish.

It's the Cistercian/Trappist/Tironensian monks on Caldey from France we're wittering on about.
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Re: Megalithic mapping

Postby Mick Harper » 11:03 am

I entirely agree, only you did mention it...
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Re: Megalithic mapping

Postby Mick Harper » 1:33 pm

Actually, thinking about it, it is slightly more important than that. The Roman coin hoard suggests this was an important Roman settlement, significant in itself so far west. If it falls into desuetude from 400 to 1100 then it would be both an odd and a overly coincidental choice for Tironensians. Unless Tironensians for some reason seek out Roman sites.
It's the Cistercian/Trappist/Tironensian monks on Caldey from France we're wittering on about.

So why not investigate the archaeology (rather than the documentary) evidence for these various places and see if they match up with our discoveries (of non-discoveries) for St Dogmael's.
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Re: Megalithic mapping

Postby Boreades » 5:09 pm

For folk with an interest in unusual maps, here are a couple of gems:

Image

Image

from : http://www.wendycarlos.com/maps.html

Astonishingly and magnificently, this is from the very same Walter/Wendy Carlos that created the wonderful "Switched-On Bach" back in 1968 on analogue Moog Synthesiser, followed by The Well-Tempered Synthesizer. The SOB LP is now a rare collectors item. But here's a digitised version.

A true polymath.
http://www.wendycarlos.com/
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Re: Megalithic mapping

Postby Boreades » 9:56 pm

Best ever online historical maps?

Thanks to the kind people in the National Library of Scotland, the entire set of 25 inches to the mile OS maps (Scotland, 1892-1949 England and Wales, 1841-1952) are available for free online.

They have a fabulous amount of historical detail that has been disappeared from more recent OS maps. Like the names of individual houses and the position of the wells in between. And on the Overton and Marlborough Downs, the position of each individual sarsen stone.

e.g.
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17 ... rs=168&b=1

I would defer to my honourable colleague (Tisi) on the question : are these the definitive OS maps?
(meaning the one true OS map from which all lesser maps are copies with less detail)
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Re: Megalithic mapping

Postby TisILeclerc » 9:59 am

Image

http://www.promap.co.uk/maps-and-data/c ... /os-detail

Big maps are done by the Field Section, or were, the information sent away to Southampton for them to deal with.

At O.S. I was a mere stick carrier.

But they're not as big as the German map as described by someone, Mark Twain or Jerome K Jerome I think. Apparently German map makers made a map inch for inch. It was so large the farmers complained as it covered their fields when it was unrolled.

https://www.cs.utah.edu/~gback/awfgrmlg.html

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2183/pg2183.txt

The adventurous may explore these two links but may get lost.
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Re: Megalithic mapping

Postby TisILeclerc » 9:25 am

Wiki has this to say about Roseberry Topping wic is a funny old name and as ad several canges over te years.

The hill was perhaps held in special regard by the Vikings who settled in Cleveland during the early medieval period and gave the area many of its place names. They gave Roseberry Topping its present name: first attested in 1119 as Othenesberg, its second element is accepted to derive from Old Norse bjarg ('rock'); the first element must be an Old Norse personal name, Authunn or Óthinn, giving 'Authunn's/Óthinn's rock'. If the latter, Roseberry Topping is one of only a handful of known pagan names in England, being named after the Norse god Odin and paralleled by the Old English name Wodnesberg, found for example in Woodnesborough.[3] The name changed successively to Othensberg, Ohenseberg, Ounsberry and Ouesberry before finally settling on Roseberry. "Topping" is a Yorkshire dialectal derivation of Old English topp, 'top (of a hill)'.[4] The naming of the hill may thus fit a well-established pattern in Continental Europe of hills and mountains being named after Odin or the Germanic equivalent, Wodan. Aelfric of Eynsham, writing in the 10th century, recorded how "the heathens made him into a celebrated god and made offerings to him at crossroads and brought oblations to high hills for him. This god was honoured among all heathens and he is called ... Othon in Danish."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseberry_Topping

Quite positive in getting Odin from Roseberry or t'other way round. And perhaps Ayton, at the bottom of the hill is just a variant of Othon or Odin?

But the name Othon reminds me of a place in Skye called Edinbane or An t'Aodann Ban

Edinbane (Scottish Gaelic: An t-Aodann Bàn the fair hill-face) is a small village on the island of Skye, Scotland.[

The name An t-Aodann Bàn is said to be taken from the white bog cotton plants that can be found on the hill sides.[citation needed]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinbane

Aodann is close in pronunciation to Othon. Peraps the original name was Odin? and had nothing to do with 'face'. Which brings us to Edinburgh. The origin of the name appears to be guesswork.

"Edin", the root of the city's name, is most likely of Brittonic Celtic origin, from the Cumbric language or a variation of it that would have been spoken by the earliest known people of the area, an Iron Age tribe known to the Romans as the Votadini, and latterly in sub-Roman history as the Gododdin. It appears to derive from the place name Eidyn mentioned in the Old Welsh epic poem Y Gododdin.[14][15][16]

The poem names Din Eidyn as a hill fort (Din meaning "dun") in the territory of the Gododdin.[17] The change in nomenclature, from Din Eidyn to Edinburgh, reflects changes in the local language from Cumbric to Old English, the Germanic language of the Anglian kingdom of Bernicia that permeated the area from the mid-7th century and is regarded as the ancestor of modern Scots. The Celtic element din was dropped and replaced by the Old English burh

The earliest known human habitation in the Edinburgh area was at Cramond, where evidence was found of a Mesolithic camp site dated to c. 8500 BC.[30] Traces of later Bronze Age and Iron Age settlements have been found on Castle Rock, Arthur's Seat, Craiglockhart Hill and the Pentland Hills.[31]

When the Romans arrived in Lothian at the end of the 1st century AD, they found a Celtic Brittonic tribe whose name they recorded as the Votadini.[32] At some point before the 7th century AD, the Gododdin, who were presumably descendants of the Votadini, built the hill fort of Din Eidyn or Etin. Although its location has not been identified, it seems likely they would have chosen a commanding position like the Castle Rock, Arthur's Seat, or Calton Hill.[33]

In 638, the Gododdin stronghold was besieged by forces loyal to King Oswald of Northumbria, and around this time control of Lothian passed to the Angles. Their influence continued for the next three centuries until around 950, when, during the reign of Indulf, son of Constantine II, the "burh" (fortress), named in the 10th-century Pictish Chronicle as oppidum Eden,[34] was abandoned to the Scots. It thenceforth remained under their jurisdiction.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh

So, we have Gododdin, Votadini, Eden in a variety of languages ranging from British, Welsh, Latin, Pictish and English. Very consistent. The 'V' in Latin was pronounced 'W' as we now know. The 'G' of Gododdin may well have been a gutteral mix of 'chh and ghh' Which is softened to 'W' so Gododdin becomes Wododdin. Similar to the Votadini. They were Woden or Odin worshippers and named their tribe and area after their principal god. Is 'Arthur' another version of Othon or Odin? If so Arthur's Seat would be where Odin watched over the area, rater like Roseberry Topping and Wodensbury mentioned earlier.

So, how would Odin get here so early and before the Vikings? I suggest from recent research on Orkney that they were already here. They say that they came from France and Belgium but I would suggest they were already living in Doggerland and instead of sailing from northern France just set sail from northern Doggerland while they had the chance.

“One came straight from Belgium and France and appear to have bypassed the rest of Britain entirely and headed straight to Orkney as there artefacts are totally different from those found in Aberdeenshire where most headed north from and are the same as those found in Europe....

The findings suggest the islands north of mainland Scotland were probably first colonised about 5,600 years ago, with settlements peaking between 3,100 BC and 2,900 BC.


http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1554 ... ists_show/

And if our Belgic ancestors came up from drowning Doggerland they would have had their gods with them. So it's got nowt to do with Vikings, they came too late. Odin was already here.
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Re: Megalithic mapping

Postby Mick Harper » 12:35 pm

Not on this evidence.
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Re: Megalithic mapping

Postby Mick Harper » 1:01 pm

Sorry, I was being flippantly dismissive. Tissie's work demands a fuller response
The hill was perhaps held in special regard by the Vikings who settled in Cleveland during the early medieval period and gave the area many of its place names. They gave Roseberry Topping its present name: first attested in 1119 as Othenesberg,

Its present name is Roseberry Topping. The Norse name is Othenesberg. Anybody except a place name crackpot would conclude that the natives called it one thing, foreigners called it something else.
its second element is accepted to derive from Old Norse bjarg ('rock');

Well, berg is the most common suffix in northwest Europe (and means ‘an enclosed space’) so only a place name crackpot would conclude it was something else. Though it might be, neither of us knows for sure.
the first element must be an Old Norse personal name, Authunn or Óthinn, giving 'Authunn's/Óthinn's rock'.

There are no Norse personal names Authunn or Othinn. There are now!
If the latter, Roseberry Topping is one of only a handful of known pagan names in England, being named after the Norse god Odin and paralleled by the Old English name Wodnesberg, found for example in Woodnesborough.[3]

Since it isn’t let’s decide there are less than a handful i.e. none
The name changed successively to Othensberg, Ohenseberg, Ounsberry and Ouesberry before finally settling on Roseberry.

Are you sure it has finally settled down?
"Topping" is a Yorkshire dialectal derivation of Old English topp, 'top (of a hill)'.

Actually no. It is derived from Yorkshire dialect 'top (of a hill)'.
The naming of the hill may thus fit a well-established pattern in Continental Europe of hills and mountains being named after Odin or the Germanic equivalent, Wodan. Aelfric of Eynsham, writing in the 10th century, recorded how "the heathens made him into a celebrated god and made offerings to him at crossroads and brought oblations to high hills for him. This god was honoured among all heathens and he is called ... Othon in Danish."

Another reason to suppose ol’ Aelfric is completely bogus. Should I go on?
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Re: Megalithic mapping

Postby TisILeclerc » 1:08 pm

You missed the bit out about how Odin is a sky fairy and doesn't exist. Except in the minds of Vikings and Anglo Saxons who invaded our lovely Celtic country and got rid of the native sky fairies.

Close your eyes and everyhting disappears.
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